Scoring Big with SMS Marketing

I’d to start off with just a little bit of an introduction. I’d like you to tell us a little bit about your role, how long you’ve been with The Wild. Yeah, so I’ve been with The Wild, actually. I just hit my seven-year anniversary last week, I believe. So yeah, I’ve been here seven years prior to being at The Wild. I was in a completely different industry. And I actually came over with more of a systems analysis type of background. And that’s kind of how where I started with the wild seven years ago as our CRM admin and really kind of transitioned into more of our MarTech analyst and systems kind of guru, so to speak. And just kind of dove headfirst into that and really kind of became our expert, especially from a marketing automation perspective within our Oracle Eloqua platform. Fantastic, so I think most people are aware, at least I am, especially people in the Midwest and the Northeast, where hockey is, you know, in Canada even, where hockey is more prevalent. But can you tell us a little bit about the wild, you know, where you guys are located, anything, any highlights or special interests on the team? You’re definitely right about that being a Midwestern and, you know, northern thing, right? It’s hockey is life. It’s everything up here. but yeah, Minnesota wild here. We’re a professional hockey team, you know, a member of the national hockey league. And so one of the 32 teams and we are in our 24th year in the league. So next year, it will be a large milestone for us. We’re super excited about to have our 25th anniversary. And, you know, I would say Depending on who you ask, know, there’s going to be varying answers, but I think, you know, from my own perspective, and I’d say organization, you know, we we’ve seen a lot of great success and, you know, as a team, but also really just, you know, with the community and engagement within the community. And, you know, we have a ton of support from our fans and, you know, I would say. Every team probably says that, I would say we really feel that. And a big part of that is because of the culture of hockey here in our area. That’s a great point. just a quick aside, I was born in the Midwest and migrated south. And it was a big transition for my family because when I got to be a certain age, it was baseball and football in the south. and basketball and, you know, my family were at work, you what about hockey? And, and now with the growth of hockey and how it’s matriculated further south, is the fans. And interestingly enough, one of our friends who’s in the, hockey field said the growth of hockey started with high depth television because prior to that was very difficult to see the puck and now with high depth TVs. hockey has really grown exponentially since the introduction of that in the late 90s and early 2000s. So fantastic. I’d like to kind of get into a little bit of understanding and what we’re here to talk about today is, as you got into text and specifically started working with TrueDialogue in your search for an SMS solution, what problems were you trying to solve? And how did you go about solving those problems? Yeah, you know, in terms of us initially getting into text messaging for various reasons, right? Today we utilize it for marketing and sales in addition to just event communications. But initially what really drove us was just to have a better more direct line of communication with our fans from an event experience perspective, right? was at that time, about five, six years ago, probably in alignment with a lot of organizations in the industry from an event perspective, we were really tightening down or tightening up our security policies from a building perspective, right? Like our bag policy and, you know, different policies around parking. just a lot of security and like I said, event policy type of things that were new to our fans. And we wanted to make sure that we could get in front of those fans with that information at a time that made sense and that they didn’t miss it. So email communication is great. That’s what people still, I would say gravitate towards from a communication perspective. But it’s easy for those communications to get lost and they’re not as timely, right? So especially with our bag policy at that time, we did not want people bringing their bags to the arena or to the venue and getting all the way up to the security checkpoints and then having to be turned away, right? And either have to pay for storage at one of the lockers we had in our entryway. or have to go back to their, walk all the way back to their parking location and put their bag there and leave it there. text messaging gave us the opportunity or medium to be able to reach those people and be right on their home screen, right? We didn’t have to worry about when are people checking their emails? Is our email gonna get pushed down, you know, in their inbox with a text message? It’s right there. It’s at their fingertips. It’s on their home screen. And we were able to time those messages. So about two hours prior to an event, because our gates open about an hour and a half ahead of time, we send out a text message with some simple know before you go information. And that helps notify people about these policies. So that way they’re not surprised. That way they can hopefully leave their bags at home before they even leave to come down to the venue. Or if they do get down to the venue, then certainly they hopefully see that before they leave the parking ramp. So that was kind of the origin of our texting need. And then it just evolved over time. So that leads me into my next question, which is, when we met, you had already deployed a texting solution. And you had found us. And we started having discussions. kind of I’m interested and I’m Would like to understand, you know, what led you to true dialogue and you know, did life look like before and how has it been since? Yeah, so Prior to true dialogue, you know, one of the things that was important to us was to have a application texting solution or more commonly referred to as mass texting solution that we could have directly integrated with Oracle Eloqua’s platform And that was just because that’s where our marketing team lived, Primary mode of communication was email. So it just made sense to be able to tie, you know, add a campaign element to our campaign canvases within Eloqua. And that was just for text messaging, right? So we could hit people in different places within the same level of effort for our marketing team. And we found initially a vendor within the Oracle Eloqua marketplace. And started with them and it was fine but when it came time for renewal. Like we always do we go out evaluate the marketplace see what we can find so through some additional research I’ve got connected with true dialogues team and just explained our use case and. What sold me on true dialogue or sold organization on true dialogue was a couple different things one was. Right away the service accommodations were fantastic, right? I felt felt right at home. I felt everything was collaborative. It did a great job. The dialog team did of really listening to what we wanted and you know, putting me in the room with you know not just the sales people right? A lot of times you get you don’t get past the sales people you know and or that’s the initial service contact but. You know, I had many conversations with your development team, right? And so that way your developers could understand directly, hey, you know, they walked me through what they had built already and then also understand, okay, what might be some enhancements that could meet our needs? And, you know, all of that was done really well and coordinated. And even before You know, we technically had signed on the dotted line. Maybe I shouldn’t share this. You know, we got, you know, we got a beta install of the application and we’re able to actually, you know, test with it and play around with it and make sure that it was going to fit our needs before we actually made the switch over to TrueDialog. So that was, you know, service was definitely a main component of that. But it, the other component was that a lot of texting providers Out in the marketplace they are typically not directly integrated with the carriers right there not they’re not delivering messages directly to the carriers they instead. Are providing the the software right the middleware in order for those messages to be configured within a marketing platform but then they’re packaging them up and delivering them to an integrator a carrier integrator such as true dialogue or like Twilio right and then. They’re those services are the ones that are actually communicating with the carriers and that’s a fine model, but I there’s a benefits to working with true dialogue because you are providing. They’re kind of all in one stop, right? Or one stop shop here. You’re providing the software and the support and you are directly integrated with the carriers, so it just kind of cuts out. a cuts out an element of that middleman and it also allows for better communication because you are aware of any carrier issues that might occur, right? Sometimes the carriers have issues with their messaging services and you find out right away, and TrueDialogue does a fantastic job of being proactive and communicating those carrier network issues. to clients even if they’re not affected right, but just saying hey just be aware we heard from you know such-and-such carrier that there is an issue and you know just be aware of that and we’ll get back to you when we have an update and that communication is great but like I said just knowing that hey your dialogue is directly integrated with the carriers their first party delivering those messages and getting responses back from the carriers is great from an efficiency standpoint especially because where you’re eliminating one point of potential failure, right? Well, some of these other services, because they’re not integrated with the carriers, they are integrated with a Twilio or somebody like that through APIs. Well, if those APIs go down, right, or they have an API issue, then your messages are not going to get delivered. That’s right, because they’re never even gonna make it to the carriers. So that’s just a, there’s a tech barrier that is removed as well, working with somebody like TrueDialog. That’s a great point. And I just kind of add a little color to that. And that’s something that we hear consistently from our customers is, number one, service. But I think a big reason why service is what it is is that we have direct connectivity with the carriers. And I think the thing that often goes unnoticed is that dealing with TrueDialog or dealing with any vendor is relatively pretty easy. The difficult part of that is the connectivity with the carriers because the carriers, number one, you know, their rulemaking is not always written. There’s a lot of gray area. And I think that the second thing is that, you know, we have to have good relationships with our carriers. We’re very selective in what we do. And I think that One of our partners who have been working with another partner who was connected in with Twilio said, if we have a problem, we open a ticket with them. They open a ticket up with the SMS provider for the API. The API provider then goes to the carrier into your point. You open one ticket, we open it up with a carrier, and then there’s basically, there’s a single point of failure or success in that you’ve got one intersection point in that. There’s also a less of a wait time because we’re not waiting and we can push things up in priority on the queue versus another partner whose main service is providing software and doesn’t really have the carrier expertise with, hey, there’s some changes that are being made. We need to be aware of this for the privacy policy opt-in, et cetera, and dealing with that on a day-to-day basis. Our teams, think our average tenure for our client success team is 14 to 15 years plus in telephony. And that allows them to really understand the system, understand where to look because there are, you know, even within the direct connectivity, you know, you’ve got a short code connectivity and failure points and you’ve got long code connectivity and failure points. now with 10 DLC, it even gets a further step in that you’ve got 10 DLC registrations, net num IDs that are part of the 10, that registration process, understanding that and solving those problems. So you pointed out something great. So thank you for, for doing so. Let’s kind of take a little bit of a turn here. I want to kind of understand, you mentioned a couple of the use cases early on with fan notifications. What other items are you using texting for? And what are some of the use cases? that you’re using today. Sure, absolutely. So I just want to add a little bit more color to the service side of things too. just because it was instrumental texting was for us during the COVID period, especially when we came back to, you know, like a lot of sports leagues, you know, they initially did come back and play, but they played without fans. Well, once started allowing fans back in, then like everybody, we had to figure out what kind of process or policies are we going to put in place from a health perspective. So we built a health check and a large component of that was text messaging, right? That’s how basically when people, we would notify people ahead of time through email and text message that had tickets on account, say, hey, just so you know, you need to complete this health check. before you are granted access to the arena, you will not get access to the arena without having an approved health check that you can show on your mobile device. So essentially, people, we set that communication and that standard or that expectation through email and text messaging, and then people would complete the form. then essentially, we would text message their pass or decline. upon that form submission directly to their phones and that graphic that approvals what they would show when they went to the gate to say hey, yeah, I completed my health check and here you go. So we also sent that approval or denial through email as well. But obviously it’s just so much easier for the fan to get that and pull it up right from their text messages. It being right there. But the We also utilize it for various marketing purposes, right? Sales purposes. So last minute sales as far as tickets are concerned. Ticket promotion launches. We just had our annual campaign for we call our no fees campaign, so everybody. Nobody likes that paying fees on Ticketmaster or any ticketing site for that matter. So we do. An annual campaign around Black Friday, Cyber Monday, where we offer tickets without fees and, you know, text messaging is a large component to that, which we’ll touch on later, I’m sure, and talk about how that performed. that’s our primary use cases right now is around ticket sales, besides, again, the service side of things. And we have utilized it for retail to to a much lesser extent. In the past, and when I say lesser extent, it’s not because of how it performs or anything like that. It’s just that organization. We don’t tend to do a of marketing around our retail arm, but when we have utilized it in the past, we’ve seen success, especially around like in the last couple of years when we did New Jersey launches for alternate jerseys. Text messaging was large component of those launches as well. Well, that brings up a great cause next next thing I really want to talk about his results and I. being close to the numbers here in our business, we saw a lot of activity in the last few weeks around Black Friday and Cyber Monday. And I know that you guys were busy during that time. And I know that you use a lot of different channels to market. And I’d really like to just talk about the results. How did techs look comparatively speaking to other channels? And, you know, with regards to any information you can share. know that, you the wild is very close, holds some of their revenue stuff very close, but if you have percentages, I think our attendees would benefit from hearing about that. Yeah, no, absolutely. So, you know, in terms of how we measure success, it’s gonna be pretty standard, you know, like any other marketing organization. It’s gonna typically be like a return on ad spend. know, it’s like through rates and things like that are a little bit more difficult on text messaging just because you don’t have You don’t know beyond deliverability. You don’t know who necessarily opened it. There are some ways that you can identify clicks, which we could certainly touch on maybe at a later point here, but return on ad spend ultimately is what matters. And when we look at this year’s campaign, the return on ad spend that we have estimated through our initial analysis here, again, this campaign just wrapped up a week ago. But we saw a return on ad spend related to text messaging of 1200%. So, you know, typically from a marketing perspective, any standard, you know, a good return on ad spend is considered 5 to 800%. I think that’s still kind of the standard in the marketing world. So, being at 1200 % is exceptional. And, you know, beyond the actual return on ad spend, When we look at conversion rates, so we compare the total audience that received the solicitation versus the number of transactions that we can directly attribute to that activation, we saw better conversion rates for text messaging than we did even for email. So email ended up around averaged 0.03 % total transaction conversion, whereas The text messaging was 0.16. So essentially five times higher. we attribute that to essentially being that, again, you’re on the home screen, you’re getting directly in front of the people, especially during when you’re doing a marketing campaign through, as we all know, through Black Friday and Cyber Monday, through email, it’s very easy to get lost in the noise, right? Immediately get pushed down in the inbox. People tend to have subscribed to less marketing text message subscriptions than they do email, right? So, and because of the barrier to entry or the higher level of scrutiny in terms of text messaging versus email, and the fact that for marketing purposes, people have to explicitly opt in to a text messaging subscription, whereas with email, There’s a lower barrier, right? can talk down. Right. Yeah, exactly. It’s there’s a lot of implicit, right? If you bought something in the past or you had some type of engagement, right? There’s your there’s a lot of ways that people are implicitly subscribed to email subscriptions. But because people have to explicitly say, yes, subscribe me to this text messaging subscription, those people are probably going to be your more engaged fans and more likely buyers as well. Right. Because they have actually raised their hand and said, yes, please sell me something. Well, that’s fantastic. And I think it’s probably a good chance now if one of the moderators could pop up the screen share and also we could kind of open a Q &A session at this juncture. I’m trying to keep on time. maybe kind of look at this a little bit, Bryant, and just kind of walk us through what your camp, you’ve given us these results already, but. I think maybe just kind of doing a quick walkthrough and then we can get into Q &A. So, you our, you see our opt-in list is about 25,000. it, you know, that is significantly smaller than our total audience for email subscriptions. But again, that the size of the audience, of course, we’d always love it to be larger and We could certainly employ tactics to actively try and further grow our text messaging subscriptions. But in the few years that we’ve been utilizing text messaging for marketing purposes, this has all been basically organic growth for our list. So when I say organic, just mean I really mean passive in the sense that we Do not actively market. Hey, text in this keyword to subscribe to, you know, text message alerts for the Minnesota wild instead. We typically just include a yes, no radio option on all at the bottom of all of our forms that says, hey, would you like to subscribe to text messaging for marketing purposes? And that’s how we’ve grown this list. So. This subscription opt-in list is specific to our marketing subscription. It’s totally separate of our game day, know before you go type of communications from a service perspective. yeah, that’s how we’ve built our list thus far. But there are many strategies that can be employed and that we see employed by our counterparts in the sports industry. And of course, I’m sure everybody sees them elsewhere too, right? how you can’t go anywhere, especially an event, and not see, hey, text this keyword to this short code in order to sign up for whatever type of communications. And that is something that I think that we can employ better within our organization here for fans that are in the arena. And hopefully we will do that in the future. But again, I just throw that out there as an example of They what we have thus far is a engaged subscription list. And while maybe that number doesn’t pop out as well, that’s a large number. That’s OK, because again, it’s a higher barrier of tolerance for your for for your customers, for your fans. Whereas again, people are kind of used to getting spammed with email and that that tolerance level is not there for text messaging. You mean. tolerance on a personal level and certainly on a legal level as well. That’s fantastic. Miss Moderator, I’m just curious, are there questions that have come in in the Q &A section? Yes, I have three questions I sent to you via email. OK. Let me pop it open here. turned my email off so I didn’t bother anyone. But… I can read the first one to you can read them, that would be great. The first question that came in is, what is the effectiveness of SMS campaigns versus other channels? I think you spoke to that well. Is there anything to add? No, I would say that I think it’s… From a strategy perspective, you can go about it a couple different ways, but ultimately, I think that employing text messaging with email or with your digital ads, We all know about multi-touch and essentially just getting in front of people and letting them engage where they are at that given time is important, but. Again, we do typically, at least as I showed in terms of evidence of how this most recent campaign performed, text messaging just by the nature of it being on the home screen and being right in front of people does tend to have a higher engagement rate. Excellent. The next question is regarding short codes and long codes. Do you have Can you speak to your experience with either one? So that’s a big question, right? And that’s probably one of the barriers that people encounter, right? Organizations when they’re looking at the investment of adding text messaging to their marketing portfolio is, you know, do they see the pricing associated with a short code? And Absolutely, it is an investment. No doubt, but I think the benefits of a short code outweigh the long code. I’ll just touch on a few of those. the first thing is short code is from a brand identity perspective and a trustworthiness perspective, just far outweighs the long code, right? So when we say long code, right, we’re just we’re talking about a local, you know, a local 10 digit phone number that that were accustomed to and those tend to have a lower level of trust with a fan or a customer because it doesn’t seem quite as professional and there’s so many scams that come out. Every scam out in the world is based around a long code, right? Not a short code. And part of that is because there is a much more stringent process to get a shortcode configured and provisioned for a business. And just through that process, there’s inherent trust that is built with the carriers and fans, right, and customers, right? You see a shortcode and you’re less likely to question the validity of that text messages and whether or not it’s safe to click through it on the links that are contained within that. That whole you know trustworthiness and then again the brand identity if if you’re a marketing message from. Always from the same number so being a short code then it’s easy to save that and or even now with AI you know a lot of times I’ll get a message from a short code and I don’t even know who it is but you know I don’t know if it’s the carrier or. The you know Apple or Google, you know, I don’t know who’s actually making the suggestions But a lot of times they’ll suggest and they’ll just say hey, this is likely this organization And so again that whole brand identity piece along with the trustworthiness Are I would say those alone, you know? pay for You know the cost of the short code itself beyond that are is the actual from a marketing perspective is the deliverability, right? Is the deliverability of a short code is typically, at least especially for us in our industry, results in higher deliverability than a long code does. And part of that, again, gets back to the process of securing a short code for an organization. When you do that, you know, like we went through a true dialogue, they will coach you through, they have the experience of of provisioning many, many short codes and working with the carriers. And when you actually provision a short code, you actually have to get approval from each of the carriers independently. I don’t know if people know how that process works, you know, and what is approved by one carrier may not exactly be approved, you know, with another carrier. So there’s so much back and forth to that process and having somebody like TrueDialog walk you through that process. and manage it for you is super helpful. But again, through that process, the carriers are essentially giving you that trustworthiness checkmark. They’re essentially whitelisting your business to send messages and bypass the spam filtering that they have employed for all other text messaging, especially on the long codes. So the types of challenges that can come up with those spam filters are certain keywords. uh, shortened links, um, and, uh, certain calls to action will trigger those spam filters and your messages may not get delivered. And, and you don’t always know in that case, right? Cause sometimes the carriers don’t even come back and provide a status back to the message delivery platform to indicate that those messages were or were not delivered. um, especially again, for our industry, because we, In our messaging and we are utilizing should be shortened links. We’re utilizing a lot of keywords and call to actions that otherwise tend to trigger those spam filterings for long codes with the short codes. We just don’t have to worry about that because we’ve already been scrutinized by the carriers and you know, giving them examples of the types of campaigns that we will run and they’ve signed off on them and we just don’t have to worry about that. So when you. When you package those three reasons together, you know, in my opinion, a short code is absolutely the way to go, especially when you’re trying to sell things. You know, if you’re just doing service types of communications, then a long code might be fine because there’s no like solicitation or call to action. That might be fine. But again, when you’re utilizing it for marketing purposes, I just think a short code is the way to go. And the other thing I just want to throw out there too is And and you know, John, please correct me if I am wrong, because it’s been several years since I’ve looked at the short code landscape, but. You know, there’s there’s essentially 2 different cost tiers, or at least there was back in the day as far as short codes were concerned. There’s a vanity short code and then there’s essentially kind of a generic or randomized short code that you can get assigned to you and they. At least at that time were two different entry points as far as costs were concerned. So the vanity being for example, we picked 222100 and part of the reason we picked that is because. For our other marketing communications, if we have anything that says hey, if you have questions, call us at 222 wild is our phone number, so we basically kept. the prefix of that 222 in our short code. So again, I mean, it’s a very small thing and the grand scheme of things might not matter, but that’s why we went with a vanity short code over a randomly assigned short code. if that isn’t, if the vanity part of that isn’t important, going with a randomized or randomly assigned short code for you. might be a way to save some money, but still allow you then the benefit of having a dedicated shortcode. Amazing. That’s great, Brian. And I think just to your point, you are correct. There are two different entry points with regards to shortcodes. And their vanity tend to be a little bit more with regards to cost. Not tend to, they are a bit more expensive. And you can go in and they’ve You can find codes that have easy number sets to remember like 222-100, 975-43, a little less easy to remember. again- That’s a great point, John, because I want to jump in and just touch on that because I did not think to touch on that. If you have any desire to do inbound campaigns, then you absolutely need to go with a short code. Again, then I would I would especially drive you towards a vanity code so that way you can pick something that is easy to remember because if you have if you have any desire to do inbound activations for again signups or whatever your purpose is going to be, then it needs to be something that is easy to remember because if it’s something that’s being like for us in our industry, if we were to show that on one of our LED displays. Right, it’s only going to be up there for a few minutes, a few seconds, or even if on TV, right? If we want to show that during a broadcast, it’s only going to be up there for a few seconds. So it has to be something that is quick, easy to remember. So that way, when it’s off the screen, it can still be in their mind. And it’s quick and easy for them to text, right? If you’re trying to get people to activate on an inbound call to action on a long code, it’s just not going to happen. But six digits or five digits versus 10 digits, right? So it’s 222 100 versus 760 519 2372. just doesn’t exactly roll off the tongue there. So I don’t know that there needs to be a lot of panel data and research to support that. It’s easier to remember five or six digits than it is 10. So thank you for that. I know we’re kind of getting at time and we’ve got a little less than five minutes and one just came in from another sports organization and their question is what advice in your journey so far would you share that would help other sports teams regarding SMS marketing? I think just start, you know, I think that’s the biggest thing is just start and one thing I would say is if you’re on the fence or, you know, maybe you. tend to start, but you don’t have the budget for it right now is if it is in your plans, then you can start collecting those opt ins now. So don’t wait. Go ahead. Add add these explicit opt ins to your to your forms now and do the research. Work with your legal teams to understand what those you know what those obligations are in terms of, you know, what needs to be there in terms of what we you know, privacy policy and. You know opt out language that kind of things. Obviously, I’m not a lawyer. I’m not going to provide you the details on that, but work with your legal teams to understand what those requirements might look like. And then again, build that into your forms now because you can start to collect those opt ins now and build that list. So that way once you do buy into text messaging, you are starting with a base of people that have already said yes, go ahead and text message me. And maybe you can have a few thousand people when you start versus once you’ve signed up, you know, trying to start from scratch. Just go ahead and get ahead of the ball now. Yeah. And there’s a great resource for that. You can either number one, you know, if you’re interested in starting today, TrueDialogue would love to talk with you. But there’s also the association that governs all short code activity. It’s called the CTIA, the Cellular Telephone Information Association. And you can Google CTIA handbook, short code handbook, and it’ll tell you what the requirements are. Like one of the things that I think Brian would say is that, you you can’t have a pre-checked checkbox on your opt-in. It has to be a proactive action taken by the consumer to say, yes, I want to receive. And there’s also language that kind of coincides with that underneath saying, you know, the Minnesota wild would like to communicate with you via text messaging. message and data rates may apply. You can stop and opt out at any time. And last but not least, you can’t do incentivized opt-ins. That’s very important to understand for short-code as well. if Ryan wanted to run a promotion saying that, give us your cell phone number today and win a new color rush hockey jersey from the wild, that’s incentivized and that can’t be collected as an opt-in. There are very specific rules that you can’t do incentivized opt-in. just has to be. Yes, I’d like to get information from the Minnesota wild about upcoming promotions and events from marketing. Absolutely. And, you know, I would say personally, if if you don’t, you know, one thing that we employ is when when somebody does is a new sign up, right? If they’re a new subscriber. And they’re subscribed through a checkbox on a form and actually I should. I just want to throw this out there. I don’t know if this still applies John. I know when we were going through shortcode configuration that essentially we the directive that we received from carriers to was not just a checkbox and actual yes no like type of radio button. Essentially they didn’t. The carriers did not like just having a checkbox so they wanted people to actually see yes no options. and then have to explicitly pick yes as well. So again, that might be something that has changed, maybe it’s softened, but I just wanted to throw that out there for people. then- were bang on, Brian. And I think that the other thing that the wild do very well is that in addition to when you do, are added in, you get a confirmation message. So Brian’s first message to his consumers is not a marketing message. The first message that goes out when a person gives permission is saying, you’ve been opted into the Minnesota Wild marketing promotion, stop to stop anytime, et cetera. just, you can go sign up anytime you want to at the Minnesota Wild and see what Brian’s up to and how they handle things, but they’re just a top-notch organization and a pleasure to work with. And I think you guys do it right. So thank you, Brian, for your time today. Thank you, everybody.